"Collectivism is Not Exportable!"
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If individuality is treasured, the individual is highest.
If the collective is treasured, a group is highest.
Kiki said:
Yes, China technically can become a democracy country, Taiwan is proof. But just because China can, it doesn’t mean China should.
Recently, I was watching a video on YouTube, called “Has China Won?” (you can find it at the bottom of this post.) And while I give the video discussion a 3/10, I would give the ongoing discussion in the comments a 10/10 for insightfulness.
Below is a logue of a comment relay with two Chinese nationals who presumably now live in a place where they have access to the outernet. As an American, I was really blown away by some of the insights from these following two back-n-forths.
Remember, this is in the comments of a video, if you want greater context you can watch the video, but I really think the gold is here in the discussion.
Plutocracy vs. Meritocracy
Vaso: Check out the clip at 9:40, when he says "Plutocracy vs Meritocracy."
Plutocracy: Government by the wealthy. Undeniably America has a ruling Aristocracy of sorts, but there is still the democratic system, the ballot box at 3 levels, and the rule of law.
Meritocracy: the holding of power by people selected on the basis of their ability. Does not mean they value freedom of speech, or freedom of religion, or freedom of the press, which is the only way to get free, organic, efficient, effective markets! So again, what's so great about the Party Room of Control that we can call its functionings a "meritocracy," when it's a huge fascist prison state that has essentially brainwashed and enslaved over a billion people? Hm. That's like having a prison where the warden is decided by round-robin wrestling matches. Just because we chose the best warden does not mean we are no longer a prison.
李荣 (Not sure how to say his name, so I call him “Kiki”) replied:
Good question, as a Chinese, I can tell you why China's system prevents the leadership from becoming a so-called “dictatorship.”
I know You look at China based on the experience of Western society right? I agree if there is a one-party country in the West, then there is no universal suffrage...then the leadership very likely to become a "dictator"（like Hitler, for example）
but China's system has something that Western system doesn’t have, which is "brainwash."
In China, if you want to be a government official ，you need to join CCP, and when you join CCP, you need to hear that The aim of CCP is to serve the people wholeheartedly everyday.. “CCP member serve the people is honour everyday..” You you need to go to a special school to learn how to serve the people! And that is what i call "brainwash."
So the brainwash education makes “serve the people become” CCP member's Religious belief...that's One of the bigger measures [mechanisms] to prevent a dictatorship.
You may not believe me, because when Trump become president of America, there clearly no one , no school educating him “to serve people wholeheartedly and how to serve people...”
But believe me , China does have that “serve the people education,” i know it , every Chinese know it, and that’s exactly why they trust CCP, mostly.
Unfortunately, even if China has such a strict education system (i.e. “serve the people-ganda”), There are still many corrupt officials [who slip through the cracks].
However, CCP's punishment of these corrupt officials is very severe, [and for that reason] You rarely encounter corruption in China like an official asking for a bribe. That makes Chinese people believe: CCP [is] Basically a good party.
So [now] you know how China Prevents a dictatorship and makes sure government “serves the people.” On the other hand, the western way is using democracy, some kind of freedom to prevent dictatorship ...does it work?
[aside: I find it interesting that the assumption is “government’s role is to prevent dictatorship.” Clearly not a fully-fledged premise, but an excellent place to start logical reasoning and reach prochainement conclusions].
Well, you know bad guys are everywhere, including democracy country. And i think the western system does not work very well, ..because bad guy would pretend to be a good guy.... pretend to be serve the people... pretend to have The ability to make America great again... (but he doesn’t), to get to the top of the power.... and i believe many bad guy success.. like the orange guy...
And can't completely stop the dictator from coming to power,
Hitler was democratically elected... remember?
I can't say China wouldn’t have dictator in the future, but so far so good. And you can't say the western way wouldn’t either (think about Hitler..) but the thing for sure is China's way is More efficient than western way... just look at China build a hospital in 10 days, and west can't...China control the virus quickly, and the west still suffer....
Dear 李荣 “Kiki”
Thank you very much for your reply. It is very illuminating.
So the system, from the point of view of Yi Everyman, looks like it keeps it as a meritocracy, minimizes corruption, and is truly there to "serve the people." That is very interesting! I did not know that, precisely, but I was aware that the propaganda machine is indeed quite strong. I am, in fact, a little amazed and a little humored by #3 of the Mao agenda which actually invites paradox as a necessary component of doctrine! If you need a way to cover contradictions, just make Paradoxes #3 on the list.
The claim to efficiency is interesting, but also would you need a hospital if there was free-flow of information and the epidemic was stopped in December before infecting millions? It's debatable that a party can move more efficiently. That's like arguing that a person with a larger brain is a better dancer. It's just not true. It looks true at first glance, but in the long run, it takes love and freedom to dance well.
李荣 “Kiki” says:
Vaso, I'm sorry I' m not good at English。Usually I use translation software to read reviews，It's no problem to understand the content。
but Your comments are too deep for translation software to understand....
so i really dont understand what you say....
No problem, 李荣, let me say it a different way, with less poetry:
It is amazing what you said: the people believe the only party goal is "to serve the people." But we have found that it is best when people serve themselves. For people to serve themselves best, something like a ruling party would be an obstacle. It is true, people must be informed and educated for a voting democratic republic to work. There is no way around it; democratic republics require an educated population.
China is now becoming very educated, will the party system be enough to satisfy all the peoples' needs?
Centralized Control of the country is good for building a hospital in ten days, but it's bad for letting information flow freely. People cannot serve themselves best if they must check every action with the government. Regarding the ten-day-hospital, If the information was available earlier, maybe the hospital would not be required.
Can China move to a democratic republic without internal revolution?
Do the people of China want a democratic republic in the future?
Kiki, when they say "Serve the People," do they mean "Serve every person" or "serve the most people possible" ?
李荣 “Kiki” replies:
China's elite management is not the hardest-working people，but the smartest and willing to serve the people.
China is lead by communist party. So collectivism is more important than individualism. Logic is simple:If collective interests are safeguarded, then individual interests will be safeguarded too;If the collective interest is harmed, the individual interest will be also harmed too..
Like the epidemic, China's Choice collective rights.Almost everyone has voluntarily obeyed the state's measures to control the epidemic.very a few individual unwilling to obey an order is forced to obey.....Then the epidemic is quickly controlled..People's lives are back to normal.To enjoy all kinds of individual interests.
In the West I saw the prevalence of individual interests.The government can not enforce the same strict controls as China,People refuse to socialize distance and go out without a mask..This will keep the epidemic going never end....This is typical of the damage to the collective interest resulting in damage to the individual interest...agree?
CCP value people's life, so the CCP wouldn’t ask some people to commit suicide for "greater good", but ....CCP did ask CCP members(nothing people) to Sacrifice them self to serve the people...Such as these outbreaks, the Doctors and nurses who are CCP member , Go to the front first..... Earthquake, flood, forest fire, etc. CCP member always be asked to go to the front line first....as i mention before, CCP member are "brainwash"(to serve people), Most people volunteered to go to the front line...even they know they may die....That's why the Chinese people supported CCP...
I know that the West also have some kind of education of serves people...But I don't think it's going to be that far like China, which is "brainwashing"...
China also has freedom of marriage and work, that part I think China is doing much better than India...
李荣 “Kiki” continues later on…
Vaso, I really don’t understand "people serve themselves", it means Cancel the Government, Let the people manage themselves personally?
If so , it wouldn’t work.
Like at war, No commander, Let the soldiers fight personally...can they win the war?
The history of thousands of years of human war proves that this is completely impossible...
and you said "can China move to democracy?" from what i know, democracy still vote a government to govern.
Since China and the West both have a government....the right question is: which way is better? does the democracy way is best for people?
Every adult in the West has a vote, Everyone has different preferences, The person who is most likely to please the voters becomes president, not the man who is most capable.If voters lack education, the elected president is even more outrageous..look at trump...
On other hand, China's president looks not at elections but at political achievement，Whoever manages well is promoted...such as xi jinping, at first, He's just a village chief....Because good management he has been promoted. It took him decades to become president...
i can say: xi jinping is much much much smarter, More experienced,More motivated to serve the people(you know, the brainwash education...) than trump....agree?
So I’ll answer your question. Yes, China technically can become a democracy country, Taiwan is proof. but because China can doesn’t mean China should...to me This is a step backwards in history, not forward..Because I think the Chinese system is obviously superior to the West.... i believe most Chinese people think the same . so no, most Chinese people don’t want democracy in the future.....if someone turn China to democracy...it would be a civil war... and very likely failure... as i say most Chinese people think the China's system is better than the west system....
I know it could make Western friends unhappy a little bit.. But that's exactly what most Chinese think...
李荣 “Kiki” continues…
Vaso, sorry miss one question, when CCP say"serve the people" ,it means serve every person who is people...not every one...because, if someone break the law or do something very bad..then he/she no longer a "people",so he/she doesn’t deserve to be served... if someone is a people..no matter how hard, CCP will serve..
During the outbreak, a child in a remote mountain area didn't have Internet lessons，When China Telecom heard about it, it built a cell phone base station for the girl to let she can study online lessons....for free..
Vaso: 李荣 “Kiki,”
If individuality is treasured, the individual is highest.
If the collective is treasured, a group is highest.
Very interesting!
What about property ownership? Can I own a lot of land in China without being in the CCP?
And what about dissent?
Can the government truly serve the people if the people are not allowed to complain?
李荣 “Kiki”
Vaso, China had the Agrarian Revolution a long time ago.All land belongs to the state. People only have land use rights, not owner rights.
so you cant own a lot of land , but you can use a lot of land(of cause you need a lot of money to pay the land use rights), that doesn’t need to be CCP member.
That's why China can expropriate lots of land for high-speed rail and other infrastructure, because the state owns all the land.
but..The house on the land is yours. So if the state wants to expropriate the land under your house, the state will pay you the market price. Many people rely on this money, from poor farmers to millionaires！So you don't have to worry about government land expropriation making people homeless. After all, the CCP aim is to serve the people wholeheartedly。。。
and the complain...well China has 1.4 billion, of cause there are many people complain about CCP everyday, but CCP do nothing about them...complain CCP is not illegal...but ....if you are CCP member, complain CCP will be punished... if just a normal people, nothing happen..
but since CCP do a pretty good job, most Chinese actually support CCP...like me..
Vaso: 李荣 And this, Kiki my friend, is exactly where the logic breaks: "What is good for the group is good for the individual" -- simply not true. This is an excellent question to contemplate, and I will explain it is a false dichotomy (= a false separation).
The group over the individual means some individuals will be lost, and that individual could be you, it could be me. It could be your grandmother, it could be the forgotten friend. The fallacy of the CCP is that we must choose between the individual and individual rights or the group and group rights. Because of this problem, the CCP is capable of conducting groupthink operations, but is incapable of doing what requires individualistic creativity.
The dehumanization of criminals and religious members who are persecuted is problematic. In the USA there is a stigma to prison, but you are still human when in jail and when out of jail. You can lose your "human-ness" in China? (in the eyes of the government?)
What if I was Chinese and had a good idea for helping the people, and wanted to start my own party to help run the nation. Can I start my own political party?
If the wish is truly to serve the people, then in the eyes of the CCP it will not be a problem, right? However, if the issue is power and control, it will be an issue.
Later, Chee Hong Lim and I had an interesting back-n-forth:
Chee Hong Lim:
Vaso, You have a narrow view and interpret thing thru it. Individualism and collectivism both have its values but neither should be taken to the extreme and that's what afflicting the world today. Or perhaps what values must come before the other, it may also be situational.
Chee Hong Lim continues later…
Vaso, Freedom of speech is good but it can also create chaos and panic. The doctor you said wasn't silence he was ask to refrain for making comments while the authorities was figuring out what the illness was that was infecting the people. It was a new strain of virus they discovered the doctor didn't even have a name for it. You think a new strain of virus can be identify at the snap of a finger?
Don't your think something of this magnitude should be announced by a person of authority?
Blaming China for the virus is again another convenient way to shrug responsibility the scientific community still haven't put a finger to the real patient zero.
You can continue to believe what the Western media spin that is your right.
Vaso:
But Chee Hong Lim, I did not mention a doctor at all. I did not say anything about a doctor. A virus does not need to be identified to tell everyone to put on a mask and stay indoors because there's danger. So nice try, but it looks like collectivism killed more people worldwide than it saved nationally, and I hope the CCP feels shameful. Collectivism is problematic, for the above logical reasons I stated, and in times like this when there is a severe crisis and information must move quickly, it will show over time that Collectivism is flawed and will grind to a halt. Yes, you think you are arguing with just me and just an American, but in reality the world is a free world, and China is the outliar.
The video that spurred the comment-spree.